Lawyers have better starting pay than doctors
From http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/forum/story/0,5562,378686,00.html?
"Singapore lawyers know that their starting salaries are superior to those of their peers in other professions, including medicine. They also know that billing pressure is not as severe as in US firms."
Bryan Tan Suan Tiu
VS
Degree Universities conducting the courses Total Males Females
Number Employed2 Mean Number Employed2 Mean Number Employed2 Mean
($) ($) ($)
Bachelor of Engineering (Civil) NUS 65 2,296 43 2,320 22 2,250
Bachelor of Engineering (Computer) NUS 22 2,523 13 2,558 9 2,472
Bachelor of Engineering (Electrical) NUS 186 2,711 142 2,769 44 2,523
Bachelor of Engineering (Environmental) NUS 9 2,583 3 s 6 2,500
Bachelor of Engineering (Mechanical) NUS 140 2,489 109 2,498 31 2,460
Bachelor of Law/ Bachelor of Law (Honours) NUS 37 3,899 20 3,800 17 4,015
Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery NUS 23 4,293 12 4,542 11 4,023
Bachelor of Science NUS 227 2,006 49 2,255 178 1,937
Bachelor of Science (Honours) NUS 76 2,513 32 2,766 44 2,330
Bachelor of Science (Building) NUS 47 2,090 20 2,275 27 1,954
Bachelor of Science (Pharmacy) NUS 2 s 0 - 2 s
Bachelor of Science (Pharmacy) (Honours) NUS 20 3,000 4 s 16 3,031
Bachelor of Science (Real Estate) NUS 51 2,132 21 2,131 30 2,133
Bachelor of Social Sciences (Honours) NUS 131 2,487 35 2,957 96 2,315
Double Degree Programme SMU 3 s 2 s 1 s
Double Degree Programme (Cum Laude & above) SMU 14 3,339 11 3,636 3 s
Master of Architecture NUS 20 2,500 8 2,500 12 2,500
Notes : Source : NUS Graduate Employment Survey
1 Refers to monthly basic salary, commissions, overtime and any other allowances excluding bonuses. SMU Graduate Employment Survey
2 Refers to full-time permanent employed graduates.
3 Refers to 3 + 1 year optional honours programme.
4 Refers to 4 years degree programme.
I think I believe the lawyer who wrote to Straits Times better lah. Starting pay for doctors is definitely not $4k a month from what I know personally!
posted by Dr Oz bloke @ 8:54 PM
17 Comments:
Good point u make.
The real salary of a ho should be made known to the public, then the profession would get the respect they deserve like nurses who are paid little but work a lot.
This would also deter poor students from applying medicine and more important of all deter greedy students who want to earn money.
Will the Dean or Dean Office do this? Unlikely as this may lead to a decrease in number of applicants applying to medical school. Is that itself a bad thing?
So what's the real starting pay for doctors in Singapore? In Aus they're the second highest paid professional for new grads.
Ho: 2460
MO: 3500 (after 1 yr)
gee, that's not a lot.how come all the Drs I've met in Singapore are sooo reech?
Many of my classmates are rich and drive cars. When they become doctors, the public will think that they are rich because they are doctors and not because they were rich in the first place.
Thus poor doctors would be misunderstood by the public like flatfeet. Solution anyone?
Singapore
'Too many doctors'
Insight into a private practitioner's concern about "excessive" training of doctors and specialistists; if trend allowed to go on, we'll have then them driving taxis one day, says "NAYR69SG", Sammyboy forum.
Feb 4, 2004
GP practices were lucrative as they were not many GPs in Singapore... You're right.
My father's classmate was a GP who failed every year of his MBBS course and was rumoured to be not so bright and was even censured by SMC for selling MC's before.
He still made so much money that he is a multimillionaire with a huge house near Botannic Gardens. A certain minister is his neighbour! It is little wonder why my father's generation wanted their children to study medicine.
I can tell you that this sort of money earning ability no longer exists for 80% of doctors in Singapore.
I never went into Medicine to be rich. I was advised to go into Medicine since I was 4 years old because it was a noble profession, gave a stable income and commanded very high salaries.
Today people love to see doctors get sued, get censured, hardly anything noble or any respect involved there. I actually contemplated doing Business Administration (BizAd).
However, I did have a strong interest in Medicine. I still have that interest and I enjoy being a doctor.
As I have mentioned in other posts, if I stay the way I am, I will be comfortable with my HDB flat and Toyota Corolla. I have no desire to buy a bigger home or drive a more expensive car.
I am contented with my life in Singapore. However I worry for the future of my children and the next generation. Migration is just another option that I have opened for myself.
Think about it, if you won $1 million dollars in TOTO today will you be filthy rich? Hardly. The price of things here is ridiculous! Plus you have to consider saving for health care, retirement, children's education etc.
$1 million if managed well financially can just ensure your family's survival for the next 20 years perhaps. I'd still live in the HDB flat and continue working.
However by the end of the 80's onwards...just like other professions.. more Singgies were getting educated & trained. Now even medical specialists are a dime a dozen with specialist practices sprouting up all over the HDB estates.
Competition is getting more and more intense not only locally but regionally as well with cheaper medical centres in Malaysia and Thailand with quite good standards.
Recently it was rumoured that MOH (Ministry of Health) had asked that any doctor who was able to undergo specialist training should be allowed to do Advanced Specialty training.
What does this mean? It means that every tom dick or harry doctor who passes the basic UK exams can undergo training to be a specialist in Singapore.
Sounds good? The catch here is that all these "trainees" or Registrars will end up competing for perhaps a few consultancy positions in the govt. sector.
The ratio may be 10 registrars to 1 position. In the past when the trainee got into the training programme he/she was guaranteed a consultant post at the end.
So what happens is that many of these Specialists will have to go out after their training to the private sector.
Now in Singapore if you are not some famous professor or you do not have many GP friends, it will be very difficult to survive as a "fresh" specialist.
Specialists outside work on referrals. If you had a fracture and you needed an operation in the private sector, who would you go to?
Now MOH is very smart because by doing this, they flood the private sector with specialists. This will lower costs in the private sector.
There will be more manpower (some of these specialists will have to work as 'assistants' to established consultants).
The private sector can take some of the workload off the govt sector. They can also push for the regional medical hub when costs come down.
So on the BIG picture this is good. But it really means that doctors pay will stagnate and increase slower than inflation. ie lower pay for doctors in the future.
I am sure there are people out there who would say hooray! And frankly I agree, this should have happened a long time ago. I am merely keeping ahead of changes.
Nowadays if youngsters go to medical school purely for the sake of prestige and money, they should take a step back and re-think their motives and intentions because I think those halcyon days are over.
You should generally make enough to provide for a comfortable existence but, by and large, I doubt the majority of fresh MBBS and even specialists shall become rich solely from their medical practice.
The same applies to most professions.
The question though is how much is enough? You have to consider again your retirement plans, health care etc. In the end a job is a job. It is true that if you truly love your job, then you never spend a day working.
However our education system is such that no one really knows what the job entails until they are stuck deep in it. It takes a certain type of Singaporean to change lines totally.
Just look at Ng Ser Miang who talked to Straits Time (recently). He was a banker, but he went into the bus business knowing nothing about it. He sold TIBS for S$80 million.
That is why I believe one should try to find a job that he/she truly enjoys doing...and not stay put because of comfort zones or what others think etc.
Making money vs love for job? In my opinion, one has to be realistic with regard to financial planning in today's world. -
Game1980,from my observation, most Drs seems to come from rich family. Therefore, they are able to drive like big brand cars even as medical students. I used to "envy' them but not anymore. In fact, those big brand cars which they got are obviously not earned it with their blood sweat money.With the changing trend in Medicine, it is certainly a worry to the next few generations wannabes Dr.
No wonder they can afford to give me free treatment.
The rich must be doing something right to teach their children to enter a noble profession to help others without expecting anything in return.
Dear anon at 11:59pm,
Haha! It's so funny to see myself being quoted on my own blog!
Nayr69sg = Dr Oz Bloke!!! No kidding.
Cheers!
I don't really understand why do most of you always says docs are not rich and not well paid.
Most of the docs i know own pte properties, expensive cars, wife don't have to work and have a few kids and of course maids too.
Just look around the carpark of any polyclinics, hospitals all the parking lots are full. I'm sure u can guess it's owners. What's more abt pte docs.
Sorry, gary, you're not yet a doc, don't be so disappointed, who knows you might be a rich doc too, in the future. You have a long road ahead of you.
Seriously, i know of many teenagers inspiring to be a doc, use to encourage them to go for it and make a difference but now I'm not very sure if I am giving the right advice.
"Most of the docs i know own pte properties, expensive cars, wife don't have to work and have a few kids and of course maids too."
Dear anon, well you should get to know me. I live in HDB flat, own no private properties, drive a Toyota Corolla, have 2 kids and no maid and wife has started to go back to work.
And I know a few other fellow doctors my age who are like that too.
Of course there are also many of my friends who are doctors who are like you described, however it has more to do with their parents being rich to begin with and helping them by buying them condos and cars to start them off in life rather than them paying for it from scratch with what they earn themselves.
I still think being a doctor is far better than many other occupations in terms of salary. However life is not as rosy as people make it out to be and certainly you won't see that many RICH doctors out there in future.
I'm pretty comfortable, no complaints but I certainly don't fit into your description.
AND....no it's not because I am the lousiest doctor in Singapore (I know some people would say aiyah DrOzbloke can only live in HDB cos he's one of those farked up ones lah).
Anyway buyign private property doesn't make you rich.
I'm sure Gary would agree with me that if u dun do your sums properly, a home can be a terrible liability instead of an asset.
I have seen friends who have million dollar 99-year lease condos bought for them by their parents. And then they go out and buy 99-year lease million dollars taking massive loans to do it.
Today they are losing hundreds and thousands of dollars and although these are "private" properties, well they aren't going to be theirs in another 89 years time.
That's plain stupidity in my opinion.
Dear Dr Oz
I do agree with you when replying to my comments. To me whether a doc lives in a pte property or HDB, is but his very own choice - To each his own. It does not mean that a doc living in HDB is a lousy doc. What I am saying is -docs are well paid and not that poor - pls lah.
Not all docs have rich parents too, remember you saying that once one enter med school, one have a job waiting for you unlike other professions - very true and you are more down to earth than some docs who thinks so highly of his profession and treats patients just like a number ontop of the door or just another case - because patients are not a professional but are always a pain in the neck.
Or worst, docs who treats patients nicely, not because he likes you but because he is paid to do the job - that's all, not a hint of human courtesy.
When I read this somewhere, I was very sadden and wonder if my doc who is very nice to me is genuine or he's just paid to do a job.
Dear anon,
Agree with you too. Anyway look at it this way. This "is he nice to me cos' he's nice or cos' he's just doing his job?" can be asked of anyone in any profession. Look at politicians!
Anyway it's the person and not the occupation at the end of the day. Better to not think so much lah. Doctor is nice he's nice why bother what his motivations to be nice are?
Would you prefer to see a doctor who is nasty because he is honest about his nasty nature? Or a doctor who is nice but is actually pretty nasty but you can't tell?
Same for me. Some patients come regularly and always request for MC. Are they really sick? Aiyah I stopped thinking about this 2 years ago and have never had any problems subsequently.
We live in a world where as long as the transaction is pleasant, communication is clear and duties are performed everything works fine.
Cheers!
PS : Yes doctors are well paid. And I am thankful for it. But doctors still have to work pretty hard and long hours too. Of course other people work hard too and still don't earn as much. But you get my point lah.
Dear Dr Oz
Honestly, I would prefer to see the nasty doc, at least I know who I am really seeing and can make a better choice - to continue seeing him or change another doc.
I wouldn't be making a mistake by recommending to friends/relatives or talking highly of him.
For the nice doc and you can't tell......well, time will tell somehow.
"buying property doesn't make you rich" true and that not what I meant. What I am saying is that one must have the earning power to finance one's expensive purchases... you know what I mean.
"Honestly, I would prefer to see the nasty doc, at least I know who I am really seeing and can make a better choice - to continue seeing him or change another doc."
Hmm interesting. What about the doctor that dresses like a fishmonger? Like uglybaldie says he won't find such doctors impressive.
In the end there is no such thing as a perfect formula lah. Some people like certain people, some people don't like certain people. You can't please everybody right?
Dr Oz
You got to be joking, your boss wears a singlet to work and all the rich patients wants to see him, then I must say it's either the x-factor or he must be "exceptional". You should know, don't you?
Well, I would see such a doc and see for myself whether he is a good doc before deciding further.
I would be lying, if I tell you that I wouldn't be shock to see a doc who dresses like a fishmonger but never judge a book by it's cover.
Being presentable and properly dressed is important too.
My specialist looks exactly like what ulgybaldie described but he is one hell of a lousy doc.
Totally agree with you on the x-factor thing, sometimes some people just seems to click, called it chemistry or x-factor - it's just your luck.
Cheers!
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